13:32:53              pboy | Dusty, go on.
13:33:21         dustymabe | Hi all. I've been making my rounds in the different working groups
                           | with a proposal about the default/fallback hostname. Here's my pitch:
13:33:37         dustymabe | Back in Fedora 33 the default hostname was changed from `localhost` to
                           | `fedora` on instances that didn't get the hostname set in any other
                           | way (i.e. it's the fallback if it's not set anywhere else). As far as 
                           | I know this change came in in systemd and was never proposed as a
                           | change in Fedora itself.
13:33:37         dustymabe | Here's the original enablement upstream
                           | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/5175 and the BZ requesting the
                           | change in Fedora: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1392925
13:33:37         dustymabe | Unfortunately, this initiallly caused us in FCOS some pain because  
                           | setting the hostname via reverse DNS lookups (via NetworkManager)
                           | stopped working along with breaking 3rd party tools that set the
                           | hostname. The NM problem was subsequently fixed, but it still remains
                           | that a lot of third party software will check to see if an instance's
                           | hostname is "unset" by checking the current hostname
13:33:37         dustymabe | against the string "localhost". Additionally it even seems that this
                           | change will never be picked up by CentOS/RHEL (see https://src.fedorap
                           | roject.org/rpms/systemd/c/13d1341b108a24d13f5922054307b5c2efc6836a?bra
                           | nch=rawhide).
13:33:37         dustymabe | The open question is, what do we think the fallback hostname should be
                           | for server like instances? And.. Should we do anything to change it
                           | for a subset of Editions/Working Groups in Fedora?
13:35:03              pboy | I would like to change it. The hostnaming for our server had broken,
                           | but I never got the reasen, until now that is
13:35:25         dustymabe | 🙂
13:35:35              pboy | And localhost is best practise for years, I think.
13:35:54              pboy | or for us at the moment "was"
13:36:11         dustymabe | +1 
13:36:27           salimma | on Workstation it's also almost never unset, really, right? I think by
                           | default it will be the admin user + something (haven't installed in a
                           | while)
13:36:34         dustymabe | What I've been doing for the other working groups is pitch it at the
                           | meeting and then create a ticket (for the record).
13:37:03         dustymabe | Does that seem reasonable here?
13:37:09           salimma | so I wonder who actually needs this non-localhost default. might be
                           | useful for containers published to Docker and other registries I  
                           | guess, but then it could be injected when making the container
13:37:10               <-- | boubou (~boubou@hide.my.ip.upsidehosting.com) has quit (Remote host   
                           | closed the connection)
13:37:32     Eighth_Doctor | so my strawman proposal is to switch systemd back to localhost for all
                           | variants
13:37:32           salimma | +1 for a ticket, I'm likely in favor too unless someone has a good
                           | rationale for keeping it 'fedora'
13:37:40         dustymabe | salimma: i think there's some autodiscovery protocols (maybe avahi)   
                           | where it's not good 
13:37:47     Eighth_Doctor | and then make Anaconda set the "fedora" hostname for installed systems
                           | by default if wanted
13:38:04           salimma | I like Neal's suggestino
13:38:12           salimma |  * I like Neal's suggestion
13:38:20           salimma | dustymabe: not good with 'localhost', or not good with 'fedora'?
13:38:27     Eighth_Doctor | the former
13:38:33         dustymabe | salimma: not good with `localhost`
13:38:38     Eighth_Doctor | mdns ignores localhost
13:39:00         dustymabe | see ^^ Eighth_Doctor knows more than I do
13:39:02           salimma | so yeah Workstation is probably the only one that needs to set it, it
                           | should not be the default for everyone
13:39:18     Eighth_Doctor | well, servers that are installed via anaconda should have it set too
13:39:27     Eighth_Doctor | because service discovery is totally broken without changing the
                           | hostname
13:39:31           salimma | ah, right. and servers installed individually
13:39:45              pboy | It you have 10 machines all 'fedora' it doesn't help mdns wise
13:39:50           salimma | but Anaconda already prompts for the hostname, right?
13:39:54     Eighth_Doctor | no
13:40:08     Eighth_Doctor | only if you go into the networking spoke
13:40:13           salimma | oh sigh
13:40:16              pboy | Anaconda offers to set in, but doesn't enforce it
13:40:43     Eighth_Doctor | what's even more annoying is that gnome-initial-setup doesn't offer a
                           | way to set the hostname right from the get go
13:40:56         dustymabe | so my original proposal was to change the default back to localhost on
                           | variants that want it to be that (alternatively, set the default to
                           | `fedora` just for variants that are workstation like)
13:41:17     Eighth_Doctor | server installs could be configured to require its configuration with
                           | initial-setup
13:41:34     Eighth_Doctor | but generally, I think a more reasonable default is localhost because 
                           | the fedora default causes problems for downstreams
13:41:55     Eighth_Doctor | systemd's default isn't read from os-release, it's hardwired into the 
                           | package build itself, which is very bad
13:42:03              pboy | Eighth_Doctor: +1
13:42:15         dustymabe | Eighth_Doctor: ehh - there are knobs in two places now
13:42:29     Eighth_Doctor | dustymabe: it's a bad knob because it only works on rhel right now    
13:42:43         dustymabe | there is the systemd compile time default and also a knob in
                           | os-release
13:42:51     Eighth_Doctor | people who do fedora derivatives without rebuilding everything are
                           | actually sorta out of compliance because of it
13:42:54         dustymabe | what only works on rhel?   
13:42:58     Eighth_Doctor | which is something we never intended to be a thing
13:43:20     Eighth_Doctor | dustymabe: systemd package has a rhel bcond to default to localhost
13:43:42         dustymabe | right I linked to that earlier - basically RHEL didn't pick up this
                           | change
13:43:58              pboy | Always these special requests   :-)
13:43:59     Eighth_Doctor | because someone realized that it's a branding problem
13:44:20     Eighth_Doctor | not because it was causing problems technically, but legally and
                           | politically
13:44:33         dustymabe | either way in fedora we have two knobs in systemd itself
13:44:39         dustymabe | there is the systemd compile time default and also a knob in
                           | os-release
13:44:50     Eighth_Doctor | yes, but systemd doesn't read the latter one
13:45:04         dustymabe | I think it does
13:45:08     Eighth_Doctor | because we have a default one set at compile time
13:45:42         dustymabe | https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-config/pull/868
13:46:19         dustymabe | setting DEFAULT_HOSTNAME=foobar in /etc/os-release works
13:46:31     Eighth_Doctor | that's not the knob I was referring to
13:46:44         dustymabe | :) - well it was the one I was referring to
13:46:55     Eighth_Doctor | in parts of systemd, the fallback hostname can be automatically
                           | derived from ID in os-release
13:47:06              pboy | Short note: 15 Mins left.
13:47:09     Eighth_Doctor | I believe both nspawn and hostnamed do this
13:47:18         dustymabe | what i'm saying here is that knob is another option for us when we   
                           | think of how to overcome this change and get what we want
13:47:24     Eighth_Doctor | anyway, I just want our compile time option to be dropped so we go    
                           | back to localhost
13:47:31         dustymabe | Eighth_Doctor: that works for me too
13:47:41     Eighth_Doctor | everything else is special sauce bikeshedding
13:47:47              pboy | My impression so far: we are good with "Server WG supports a check to
                           | return to the possibility of defining the hostname via DHCP and local
                           | host as transinient hostname (fall back). " 
13:47:58         dustymabe | but if we want workstation to keep `fedora` then we can just have them
                           | set `DEFAULT_HOSTNAME=fedora`
13:48:04     Eighth_Doctor | and frankly, gnome-initial-setup should ask people what to name the
                           | computer
13:48:18         dustymabe | pboy: +1
13:48:35         dustymabe | yes let's just agree we want it back the way it was and work out
                           | details later
13:48:40     Eighth_Doctor | sure if that's what we want to do
13:48:46     cooltshirtguy | pboy: +1
13:48:49         dustymabe | I'll open a ticket with this info